Category: Magic Spells/Systems Topic: Minor Spiritual Circle
Date: 01/09/2018 08:13 PM CST
From: LORDEVARIN
Subj: Spiritual Lore: Blessings and Spirit Guide (130)
As it stands now, only an exceptionally trained Empath is capable of maximizing the utility of Spirit Guide as per the wiki. I understand that there is a need to balance the relative ease of access and ubiquitiness of this spell against other transport abilities, but I think there is room to allow for additional training by professions other than mutant Empaths to unlock it’s potential.
I suggest that Spiritual Lore: Blessings be added to the spell’s equation in such a way to help make up for the fact that it is outright impossible to achieve max utility outside of a very specific build case. Doing so would provide incentive for non-standard lore training investments and increase build diversity. There are many ways which the lore could be implemented, but what makes sense to me is having a percent chance of reaching the next lower tier of sickness roundtime based on a seed 1 progression. The base chance would be 10%, increasing 10% per rank until reaching 100% at rank 10, meaning a guaranteed dropping to a lower tier of sickness. The bonus could then drop to 5% for the next set of 10 ranks, and so on.
!>tell child to be quiet The child cries, “I don’t wanna!”
Date: 01/09/2018 11:18 PM CST
From: JEFFEE83
Subj: Re: Spiritual Lore: Blessings and Spirit Guide (130)
Thanks for the thread about this topic that really bothered me tonight!
Back when I played in GS3 17 years ago, I remember 225 and 130 being totally overpowered with no consequence/penalty whatsoever and I understand adding a downside to 130. It would put a bit of a damper on something that was one of the most fun aspects of the game, but understandably so.
Fast forward 17 years and I have been back to GS4 for a little over 2 months now. My new cleric is level 34 and just learned 220 (also at 120 in Minor). My next major goal is 130 and I’m really excited to get it because I want to be able to rescue people once in awhile and it’s also one of my favorite spells from GS3.
I was pretty sad to hear many people saying the spell is not enjoyable and has major RT penalties until much later and nearer to cap. This is yet another example of one of my biggest disappointments since returning: I hear frequently that “[insert high level spell here] is not really good until much later”…which I think is a huge design mistake. Spells at 20, 25, 30, 35, 40, 50 should all be fun, exciting, and useful spells as soon as you are lucky enough to get them. They represent milestones that you strive for. It’s very sad to have those be negated by penalties that make you just ignore them until long after you can actually use them.
Anyways, back to 130. I did some testing with my sorcerer because I reactivated his account and he’s in a 30 day period where I can change skills. At level 38, I moved his spells around to: 130, 420, 735. His CON bonus is 0, PF = 40 ranks, SMC = 40 ranks. Here are the stats from 20 casts of 130:
Average RT = 42.5s (seems too high) Median RT = 35s (better) Min RT = 17s (seems maybe too low by a bit?) Max RT = 87s (way too high and unfun)
This is not as bad as I was led to believe on LNet (go figure), but also seems blatantly unfun. Balance is one thing, but over a minute of hard RT is just a bad mechanic in my humble opinion.
<When considering the balance of this spell, let’s not look at only how it is for only capped players, but how does it feel to someone at the level 30-40 range who just learned their awesome new level 30 spell, and are 1x trained in the factors that mitigate its penalties?
There was a lot of discussion in the #gm-questions channel on Discord about this tonight and I wanted to write down some of it and add some of my own ideas.
1) Get rid of the outliers on the top end, even if it means raising the min slightly (this feels like a bad band-aid compared to the next ideas but it’s something). 2) Reduce the penalty when traveling alone (group travel is more powerful and should be more taxing). 3) Reduce the penalty when transporting a corpse (encourage rescuing/community/etc.) 4) Add some gameplay – perhaps some sort of ritual/danger at the front end could reduce penalty on the back end? i.e. kneel and pray for 10 seconds prior to cast reduces 30s of RT (boring/simple idea but you get the idea). 5) Consider different temporary penalties than just hard RT i.e. regen penalty, +RT on actions, immobilization (can perform actions but can’t move), mana cost increase on spells, can’t cast for x seconds, etc. 6) Perhaps remove the nausea/puking aspect (for RP purposes) and/or allow cosmetic changes to the after-effects – some players simply don’t want to puke every time they cast 130! 7) Add more ways to mitigate the penalty (apparently it’s easiest for Empaths to do so, and they’re the only ones who can make the potion to mitigate?) 8) Smooth the curve of the penalty so it’s not so bad for lower level players, as long as they are training moderately in the proper skills
I’m sure there are many other great ideas about how to improve this spell. I think the randomization of the target is a fair mechanic that adds some flavor, but the hard RT is just unfun and harsh.
I want to emphasize that this is just based on how I feel as a returning player who has heard many times that many higher level spells are not useful until far past their actual level and how disappointing that is.
Thanks to Estild for contributing to the discussion and to everyone else who shared their thoughts!
Tsalin/Jeff
Date: 01/10/2018 04:29 AM CST
From: OM1E5GA
Subj: Re: Spiritual Lore: Blessings and Spirit Guide (130)
<4) Add some gameplay – perhaps some sort of ritual/danger at the front end could reduce penalty on the back end? i.e. kneel and pray for 10 seconds prior to cast reduces 30s of RT (boring/simple idea but you get the idea)>
No, just flat no. Especially since this is ment to be a spell primarily for rescuing bodies.
By the time most characters are actually learning this spell (which isn’t going to be level 30 even for most that more then 2x in spells), the majority of hunting grounds are not going to be ones you want to be putting yourself at a disadvantage in. Not a huge problem for empaths and clerics (unless they’re trying to rescue a body somewhere that can dispel sancs), but they’re not the only ones with access to the spell. Keep the kneeling/prone stuff right at the end where it is now if it’s needed.
Honestly, if it’s important that you be able to fog bodies at/before level 30, you’d be better off joining Voln anyway.
<This is yet another example of one of my biggest disappointments since returning: I hear frequently that “[insert high level spell here] is not really good until much later”…which I think is a huge design mistake.>
This isn’t really true of most high level spells. I’d actually say it’s far more true for most attack spells above level 10ish, they just aren’t going to be very useful until you have the mana to actually cast them regularly (there are exceptions, esp in the right circumstances… 719 and 720 spring to mind).
Most of the high level (level 20 and above) spells actually are useful when you learn them for the simple reason that few of them are attack spells (325 and 330 are glaring exceptions, I’ll admit). Sure, some of them can have high risks or painful drawbacks when you first learn them, but that’s to be expected… esp for a spell in a minor circle. Of the level 20+ spells my characters learned by the time they where the same level of the spell, 720, 740, 625, 630, 640, 1125, 1130, and 1150 were all useful right out of the gate.
I would include 730, 735, and 1140, but two of those weren’t released until I was 10+ levels above the spells and 730 didn’t start becoming useful without crystals until recently. I haven’t had a bard or wizard to level 20 to comment on… but yea, if all you have to play with above level 20 is a cleric, I can see how you might feel that way until level 50.
Starchitin
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
Date: 01/10/2018 07:02 AM CST
From: JEFFEE83
Subj: Re: Spiritual Lore: Blessings and Spirit Guide (130)
My idea with #4 and adding gameplay was that you could reduce the RT on the back-end by doing some sort of ritual on the front end. I imagined this being optional so you could still come in to a very dangerous room, grab a corpse or two, and fog out quickly…but the penalty would be more severe in that case because you didn’t do the ritual. Big picture, the idea is to make the penalty involve gameplay rather than the very boring/unfun big RT.
With regards to high level spells, I admit that I clearly have a lack of the full picture, being only 2+ months back…but here’s what I’ve got so far…(and my characters are cleric/sorc right now):
320 – doesn’t exist 325 – needs lots of lore training, spread out in a certain way, still seems very limited of use except with nexus/chrism, which happen to be two of the most expensive lore-wise 330 – RP only, not really useful but cool idea 335 – I hear mixed reviews on this…I heard I can probably use it on a room full of bandits to some decent effect? I’ll find out in 1 more level 220 – Well it’s a small sample size but I learned it last night, was excited to try it out, and it failed the first 3 casts in TSC…fourth cast it worked! Early 75% failure rate is likely not accurate but very disappointing as my first experience right out of the gate. 125 – Pretty niche it seems – mostly for blowing up boxes with hard traps? Does anyone use this for other things regularly/effectively? 720 – Wiki says it is highly weighted towards being better at 40 – so far at 38 with 2x spell aim it’s been quite mediocre/inefficient 725 – Seems cool but has so many restrictions/penalties/dangers that I’ve barely even tried to use it, especially since I have much more necrology than demonology lore. I should research it more. 730 – Cool idea and I’ve played with it a bit, even giving warrior undead a claidhmore, but overall ended up feeling it was more effort than it was worth. Has been outstanding in about 3-4 situations for running a dead character back to town! 418 – Haha – first two uses I got nerve damage. Got healed and third try killed me. Fun! Any spell where death is a chance upon failure really discourages lower level players from trying to use it more (220, 740, also come to mind)
Thanks for your thoughts!
Date: 01/10/2018 08:42 AM CST
From: KRAKII
Subj: Re: Spiritual Lore: Blessings and Spirit Guide (130)
“ubiquity”
(Given that Sorcerers, Empaths, Clerics, and even Rangers can learn it with reasonable ease, and Rogues & Warriors can–if they choose–get there eventually… yeah, it’s pretty easy to come by.)
.
I would not be averse to something like the Traveler’s Song/1020 ‘anchoring’ system being added–possibly as a lesser bonus (but still a bonus)/higher level of difficulty–to make arriving in a non-random room a bit more likely, too.
Date: 01/10/2018 01:31 PM CST
From: LEAFIARA
Subj: Re: Spiritual Lore: Blessings and Spirit Guide (130)
>Especially since [130] is meant to be a spell primarily for rescuing bodies.
This came up last night and, interestingly enough, the GMs said its main intended use was emergency transport for the whole group. And, sure, it can be used that way, but the players (including me) almost universally agree with what you said, that it’s for rescuing bodies.
That’s a funny thing to me: a spell that’s almost always used for something other than its intended purpose.
(Ironically, the other way in which I use 130 also isn’t emergency transport and is just personal travel since my empath with 303 Physical Fitness has no nausea penalties 85%+ of the time.)
Subj: Re: Spiritual Lore: Blessings and Spirit Guide (130)
Remember that the spell list/design intent dates from the ICE rules.
When I got here, there was basically one (1) person who knew the spell: Strom. (He was 97th level, he didn’t have anything much else to train in besides lockpicking & traps, at that point… Heh. And if Strom needed to come get you out in the field, it WAS an emergency. 🙂 Even Kayla, who was in the mid-to-high-50s, didn’t have it because she knew 18 Healer ranks [to clear scars] and at least 19 Closed Channeling [because she knew Spell Shield/opal aura]… it was still One Spell Per Level, and that’s 37 accounted for.
.
The massive explosion in knowledge of Word of Return/130 happened with the deICE, and being able to research more than one spell per level. Everyone and their brother picked it up, at that point.
Prior to the addition of the nausea, I routinely used it in order to cut the ring usage/chance of reclamation in half (down to “only the outbound leg”); now I play so little I don’t sweat it, and just burn rings as needed. Pawn shop (or worst case, Alchemist) can always hook me up if need be.
Date: 01/10/2018 03:32 PM CST
From: GS4-ESTILD
Subj: Re: Spiritual Lore: Blessings and Spirit Guide (130)
LEAFIARA
This came up last night and, interestingly enough, the GMs said its main intended use was emergency transport for the whole group.
And, sure, it can be used that way, but the players (including me) almost universally agree with what you said, that it’s for rescuing bodies.
To clarify, I said, “The main function and utility of 130 is to teleport your group back to safety” and that includes live or dead group members. It most definitely is intended as a rescuing tool.
GameMaster Estild
Date: 01/10/2018 04:18 PM CST
From: LEAFIARA
Subj: Re: Spiritual Lore: Blessings and Spirit Guide (130)
You’re right. I went back to check and I thought something Tamuz said about intended use was in response to something Elysia said about 130 being designed to encourage cooperative play, but was actually about a different discussion at the same time about using 325 to check for orbs.
Sorry about that!
Date: 01/12/2018 08:50 AM CST
From: GS4-ESTILD
Subj: Re: Spiritual Lore: Blessings and Spirit Guide (130)
In reviewing this, I discovered a bug where the Spirit Mana Control benefit was not being applied. It should now be fixed. Such training can have a dramatic effect upon the severity of the nausea.
GameMaster Estild
Date: 01/12/2018 11:06 AM CST
From: LORDEVARIN
Subj: Re: Spiritual Lore: Blessings and Spirit Guide (130)
Thanks Estild, nice to hear. I hope there is further reviewing to be had all the same.
!>tell child to be quiet The child cries, “I don’t wanna!”
Date: 01/12/2018 01:24 PM CST
From: LEAFIARA
Subj: Re: Spiritual Lore: Blessings and Spirit Guide (130)
With 25 Constitution bonus and 100 SMC:
Before the fix; 8, 16, 42, 54, 24, 0, 16, 23, 4, 0, 19, 0, 8, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 13 Average RT: 11.35 Max RT: 54
After the fix: 0, 6, 12, 20, 16, 1, 9, 0, 0, 15, 5, 0, 6, 0, 0, 20, 14, 11, 21, 0 Average RT: 7.8 Max RT: 21
That’s a lot better without those huge 40+ second rounds!
Subj: Re: Spiritual Lore: Blessings and Spirit Guide (130)
According to the wiki SMC doesn’t do anything at the high end, just reduces the low end, so that looks just random luck that you didn’t get high ones.
Date: 01/12/2018 02:37 PM CST
From: GS4-ESTILD
Subj: Re: Spiritual Lore: Blessings and Spirit Guide (130)
RATHBONER
According to the wiki SMC doesn’t do anything at the high end, just reduces the low end, so that looks just random luck that you didn’t get high ones.
I’m not sure where that information came from, but it’s wrong and actually the opposite. Specifically, SMC ranks lower the ceiling, not the floor, thus with enough training, you will never get the 60 second RT wave of nausea.
GameMaster Estild
Date: 01/12/2018 02:52 PM CST
From: VANKRASN39
Subj: Re: Spiritual Lore: Blessings and Spirit Guide (130)
>I’m not sure where that information came from, but it’s wrong and actually the opposite. Specifically, SMC ranks lower the ceiling, not the floor, thus with enough training, you will never get the 60 second RT wave of nausea.
been there since 2008
Date: 01/12/2018 03:26 PM CST
From: OM1E5GA
Subj: Re: Spiritual Lore: Blessings and Spirit Guide (130)
Thanks for providing the correct info, Estild…. it always seemed odd to me that it worked that way. Just got done correcting the wiki.
Starchitin
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
Date: 01/12/2018 06:23 PM CST
From: JEFFEE83
Subj: Re: Spiritual Lore: Blessings and Spirit Guide (130)
Thanks @Estild for looking into it and finding/fixing the bug!
I figured I’d do my little test again with my sorcerer to see if I noticed an improvement. Here’s what I found:
Did the testing on the 130 bug fix with sample size = 20 on my level 38 sorcerer with CON = 0 (bonus), 40 SMC, 40 PF Spells known: 130, 420, 735 BEFORE BUGFIX: Avg = 42.5s, Median= 35s, Min = 17s, Max = 87s AFTER BUGFIX: Avg = 40.65s, Median = 40.5s, Min = 9s, Max = 70s
Overall a small improvement (although could be ignored due to sample size). Still seems workable and doesn’t ruin the spell for me, but I believe it would be much better to design some better gameplay penalties/mitigators rather than just hard RT on the end.
