GM Finros identified and fixed some bug with the LUMNIS CONTEST CURRENT calcs. Here’s the outcome on his fixed top 50 list. TL;DR? Next Lumnis *will* be more, but the 50 Heroes of Lumnis list that we see will have to be manually updated for the next week.
Category: Game Design Discussions Topic: General Discussion about Gemstone IV
Date: 12/23/2016 08:47 AM CST
From: KRAKII
Subj: Re: Updates to the Experience System!
To revisit this briefly, since I had a thought on the morning commute…
Recently we’ve gone through a rash of being able to fine-control our experience bucket. (It began with deciding when/whether to turn in a Guild task and turn the bucket up to saturated, and LOGic enhancives, but now we have boost absorb, and more recently boost longterm.) So clearly there’s no real base issue with putting more capability into players’ hands.
I was also thinking about the old XXX, and how it morphed into the Gift of Lumnis, and now the new mechanics. Also, how there was a difference between an actual RPA multiplier (which includes a “+ 50%” stage, that neither XXX nor Lumnis ever did) and these newer mechanics.
And of course, there is still dissatisfaction floating around among the 25 people who came in above the final averaged amount.
.
So here’s my thought: – The people who are shown in “lumnis winners” who are above the finalized average amount, get a 3x RPA of “the amount by which they are above.” (So if the average is 20844, and you came in at 21648, you get a 3x RPA of 21648-20844 == 804 points.) – This counts as a TRUE RPA, so it gives you time at 3x, it gives you time at 2x, and it gives you time at 1.5x stage [note that Lumnis does not now, nor has XXX ever done before, conferred this stage, so this is a “new add” for those people at the top]. – Obviously, it’s only good for X (in this case, 804) points of absorption. But you’re getting (in this case) +1608 (during the 3x) +804 (during the 2x) and +402 (during the 1.5x stage) == 2814 free experience out of your Lumnis contest. – Set the trigger time to award it when your Lumnis starts for the week, and you get one use of it each week (obviously). – Put it under the control of the character. Stick it in “lumnis winners claim”, and obviously you need to be one of <this group of people who appear in the ‘lumnis winners’ display above the average amount>.
.
Presto. The people who put forth the most effort get a little bit of extra payoff (due to receiving the 1.5x RPA stage that Lumnis never got), and they can do it when it’s convenient for them. (“I just went to saturated, I’ll trigger it now.”)
Date: 12/23/2016 12:17 PM CST
From: TRIPLEGAME226
Subj: Re: Updates to the Experience System!
>I was also thinking about the old XXX, and how it morphed into the Gift of Lumnis, and now the new mechanics.
Uhh….XXX and Gift of Lumnis are the same thing.
Now I’m curious…what did you think XXX was?
~ Methais
Date: 12/23/2016 12:22 PM CST
From: KRAKII
Subj: Re: Updates to the Experience System!
I wasn’t certain if made any other changes besides “the name”, so I covered my bets. 🙂
Date: 01/10/2017 10:22 AM CST
From: VICIMER
Subj: Re: Updates to the Experience System!
I’m seeing the 250 deducted from the LTP at midnight when on gift sometimes. Anyone else having that happen?
Date: 01/10/2017 05:54 PM CST
From: FURROWFOOT
Subj: Re: Updates to the Experience System!
If I understand correctly, you absorb 250 per day no matter what. You absorb 1 XP per 10 field XP absorbed normally when not on gift, – that’s the part you’re thinking of. Of course I’ve been wrong before…
Date: 03/07/2017 03:50 PM CST
From: CANDIDE
Subj: Re: Updates to the Experience System!
“The funny thing is everyone who didn’t contribute keeps claiming how easy it was and yet, the numbers showed these people willing to contribute in place of the top 25 did not exist.Fleurs”
Asked and answered. Oeath | 21387 Only gem tasks, Halfling no enchancives got to numb twice. Galenblackbard | 20049 Mostly bandit tasks, those gem tasks I got naturally and a few at the end I did with boost bounties. No enhancives Half-elf. Salvashion….. Don’t know but my plan is all gem bounties for the first 3 hours then bandit tasks and whatever gem task I am given naturally for the last 3 hours. I expect to be over 20k. No enhancives Dwarf.
GBB
Date: 03/07/2017 04:20 PM CST
From: KITHUS
Subj: Re: Updates to the Experience System!
Sometimes I love you Galen.
Keith/Brinret/Eronderl
Keith is correct
-Wyrom, APM
Keith is correct.
-GameMaster Estild
Date: 03/08/2017 02:12 PM CST
From: DRUMPEL
Subj: Re: Updates to the Experience System!
I think I put in good effort this time around, though my dark elf wizard only has log of 84 (17 bonus). He doesn’t have any enhancives. I kept him grouped and on a super node 90% of the time. He did a couple gem bounties he had gems for and herb tasks (had someone fetching herbs for him). I think I used 25 bounty boosts (had 100 saved up, might as well make good use of them).
90% of the time he was saturated and a couple of times he dropped down to becoming numb/muddled because I was doing other things while he sat to absorb exp and my tasks took longer than expected. He ended up about 500 exp shy of 20k and was at spot 22 on the contest chart.
I do have to say it’s rather tedious and dull trying to maximize your experience during this contest. If I tried my hardest, I probably could have pulled another 1k+, but it’s not terribly fun.
It’s cool and all have a chance to better the Lumnis gift, but I’m not one of those people that enjoys maximizing such things and I rarely even complete all 6 hours of Lumnis on any of my characters. To those that really dedicate themselves to this – thanks!
-Drumpel
Date: 03/08/2017 04:10 PM CST
From: KRAKII
Subj: Re: Updates to the Experience System!
“I do have to say it’s rather tedious and dull trying to maximize your experience during this contest.” — Drumpel
When one of the women posted how she went through and did the Bounty tasks and so on, I thought to myself how supremely UN-entertaining (for a game we play for fun) that sounded. (My actual, exclaimed, words were, “Can I get some peanut butter for that pistol?”)
.
Going back to my “change of altitude/step climbing competition” analogy that I used at the end of the first contest…
So, yeah: she may have been the “effective altitude achieved” competition winner, doing it on a StairMaster in the basement, facing a blank wall, with nothing but water to drink. I would rather be one of the ones out through-hiking the AT with a picnic hamper and a bota of wine, so even if I don’t even come anywhere near the average, I probably enjoy the changes of altitude a hell of a lot more.
Date: 03/08/2017 04:17 PM CST
From: COLEMANJ
Subj: Re: Updates to the Experience System!
But then if you drop your bota of wine, you have to hike allllllllll the way back to get a new one. Where as if you were on your stairmaster in the basement, all you’d have to do would be to go to the wine rack and fetch a new one.
Priorities, sir.
Date: 03/08/2017 04:35 PM CST
From: KRAKII
Subj: Re: Updates to the Experience System!
“you have to hike allllllllll the way back to get a new one” — ColemanJ
You clearly haven’t seen my waistline, recently. Getting in more hiking mileage is why I do these things in the first place. (I need it! 🙂
Date: 03/08/2017 06:18 PM CST
From: CANDIDE
Subj: Re: Updates to the Experience System!
“Going back to my “change of altitude/step climbing competition” analogy that I used at the end of the first contest…
So, yeah: she may have been the “effective altitude achieved” competition winner, doing it on a StairMaster in the basement, facing a blank wall, with nothing but water to drink. I would rather be one of the ones out through-hiking the AT with a picnic hamper and a bota of wine, so even if I don’t even come anywhere near the average, I probably enjoy the changes of altitude a hell of a lot more.-Krakii”
This contest to me is more like I will do X once so I don’t have to do X for next 12 times. So you do the Stairmaster in the basement and for the next 12 weeks you can hike the AT trail and blue blaze it white blaze it…anyway you want even if that is stopping at some small town and hanging out at one of the Summer Festivals.
Give me this rather than the 25 mile a day AT grinder cause I got to finish before I get fired, or finish before whatever your reason insert here.
GBB
Date: 03/11/2017 01:20 AM CST
From: INIQUITY
Subj: Re: Updates to the Experience System!
Just averaged the top 50 for the late Friday night leader board.
We’re at 21,281 at the moment. +437 over last contest so far.
– Xorus’ player
Date: 03/11/2017 09:48 AM CST
From: DOUG
Subj: Re: Updates to the Experience System!
>> The mathematical maximum Lumnis bonus exp that one can earn is around 26,460(assuming a burghal gnome with maxed logic, max logic enhancers, always absorbing their maximum chunk on a supernode).
With the 29K posted in the number one slot (HOLY [expletive deleted]!!) I’m guessing there’s still a thing or two to learn about this game. Like it!
>>We have never observed that occur in the last year.
Timed almost perfectly to coincide – reset clocks and reset calendars! Coase, you deserve a bonus for pulling that off. Now. . . if lines up in November as well, that will be incredible.
So the second contest is going to show a 400-ish pool increase over the first. I’m happy to see it still going up.
Doug
Date: 03/11/2017 12:01 PM CST
From: THORNBROOK
Subj: Re: Updates to the Experience System!
Ok as the current freakish top 2 numbers in the contest I found some wonkiness. As the contest is going another week I’ll email Finros about what I did and what I suspect the issue rather than posting here and skewing the results more.
Date: 03/11/2017 12:59 PM CST
From: DOUG
Subj: Re: Updates to the Experience System!
Heh. But it do look good. 😉
Doug
Date: 03/11/2017 01:01 PM CST
From: VICIMER
Subj: Re: Updates to the Experience System!
It’s especially nice after the insistence last time that the number was going to drop like a rock.
********************** A quick flick of Wyrom’s wrist sends a dagger into flight! The thorny barrier surrounding you blocks Wyrom’s attack! One of the vines surrounding you lashes out at Wyrom, driving a thorn into his skin! Wyrom flinches slightly.
Date: 03/11/2017 01:41 PM CST
From: RATHBONER
Subj: Re: Updates to the Experience System!
Number 3 is far enough ahead of the rest to suspect there’s an exploit there as well.
Date: 03/11/2017 03:19 PM CST
From: KITHUS
Subj: Re: Updates to the Experience System!
Yeah the top 3 don’t exactly strike me as possible.
Keith/Brinret/Eronderl
Keith is correct
-Wyrom, APM
Keith is correct.
-GameMaster Estild
Date: 03/11/2017 04:44 PM CST
From: GS4-FINROS
Subj: Re: Updates to the Experience System!
>Yeah the top 3 don’t exactly strike me as possible.
They aren’t. But I hasten to add that it isn’t their fault or the result of any malicious behavior on their part; this is a bug that slipped past me in the interactions with offline experience gain.
The bug is fixed as of about half an hour ago. In the current prime contest, the first legitimate amount is Marhand at #4, with 23156. Including the first three, there are 18 incorrect entries in those top 50. I’m evaluating options for how best to manually correct the situation.
Date: 03/11/2017 04:51 PM CST
From: JOEKUPS
Subj: Re: Updates to the Experience System!
How big of a difference are we talking about? It looks like the people/person who knew/tested it was able to rack up a large amount. Are the 18 numbers cited as inflated and just don’t know it or …?
Date: 03/11/2017 05:57 PM CST
From: THORNBROOK
Subj: Re: Updates to the Experience System!
Now that it is fixed I can elaborate.
As the player of Vehir, a HK warrior with -5 logic bonus I certainly didn’t set out to compete for the top 50 I was merely interested in slowly and steadily finish my lumnis and make progress toward that next level. With such a poor logic bonus I prefer to play him a little each day rather than knocking out lumnis all at once. I’ll do a bounty in the evening and might even finish the next one to turn in tomorrow. I’ll log out and let the experience tick away offline. Unfrying as a HK is so slow, I might as well do it while I’m sleeping or at work. When yesterday(Friday) came I was ready to put a little more in game time into finishing my lumnis for the week. When my Lumnis ended yet I still had the “eyes of Lumnis” messaging the response Lnet had was that I had beaten the old average and good job on my efforts. I knew there was no way but I couldn’t tell until my contest ended with my absurd #1(and slightly delayed #2) score how far off it would be.
All in all, I feel like I had to do my full Lumnis which consisted of maybe 2-3 hours playtime and 4 nights and 5 days of being logged out absorbing offline during work or sleep. Then with Lumnis over I feel I had to play in game another 3-4 hours for the contest period to end. I was curious though so I slogged through it to see what my score would be. Just to avoid any pitchforks I certainly didn’t get any additional modified EXP during the contest just 15 minutes of fame on the scoreboards and a lot of inquiries to deflect.
Here’s hoping we don’t have to re-do the contest for the week.
Date: 03/12/2017 12:32 AM CST
From: GS4-FINROS
Subj: Re: Updates to the Experience System!
My apologies for the problems with the Lumnis contest experience counting. The system was incorrectly including offline experience gain as a multiplier to the time-based contest amounts for most characters, making it possible for someone to gain 2000+ contest experience on a single “tick”. (This wasn’t an issue in the last contest, and wasn’t supposed to be possible in general, but there was a lingering bug in the conversion from time-based to point-based Lumnis). Actual experience gain was not affected, only the contest amounts.
The good news is that we keep extensive logs. The bad news is that they apparently aren’t (or at least “weren’t”, since I promptly added more logging when I discovered this) extensive enough for a full repair of the data. It took me a couple of hours, but I was able to hand-calculate the appropriate amount of experience for the top 50 as of earlier tonight. Of them:
– 31 were not affected by the bug and had valid experience amounts. – 13 had significantly inflated experience (by 10k+ in a few cases) and their true experience totals did not crack 18674, which was #50 in the first contest. I removed these entries entirely. – 5 had minor experience inflation and I recalculated their proper experience totals and repositioned them on the chart as needed. – And I had full records for 3 of the top 50 entries from earlier today that had rolled off but were unaffected by the bug, and could therefore restore those entries to the chart.
But that leaves 11 places in the top 50 that aren’t currently filled, and I’m afraid that I can’t get that data back. Thus places #40 through #50 in LUMNIS CONTEST CURRENT do not show the individuals that should actually be there.
We’ll discuss how to properly resolve the situation, but we aren’t going to penalize players for our error. The contest won’t be re-run for this period, and we’ll make sure that the experience multiplier reflects the state of the contest as it should have been. The average of the top 39 is higher than the average of the top 39 in the last contest, so I have no doubt that the new Lumnis amount will be higher this contest period than it was in the previous one.
Date: 03/12/2017 01:24 AM CST
From: VICIMER
Subj: Re: Updates to the Experience System!
Weird.
********************** A quick flick of Wyrom’s wrist sends a dagger into flight! The thorny barrier surrounding you blocks Wyrom’s attack! One of the vines surrounding you lashes out at Wyrom, driving a thorn into his skin! Wyrom flinches slightly.
Date: 03/12/2017 05:19 AM CDT
From: DOUG
Subj: Re: Updates to the Experience System!
>>The system was incorrectly including offline experience gain as a multiplier to the time-based contest amounts for most characters, making it possible for someone to gain 2000+ contest experience on a single “tick”.
And those contestants who had their offline experience flag OFF were still subject to this bug? Or was that also defective?
Doug
Date: 03/12/2017 06:49 AM CDT
From: JOEKUPS
Subj: Re: Updates to the Experience System!
Thank you for the time you put into fixing this. Both the original bug and the records.
Date: 03/12/2017 07:43 AM CDT
From: RATHBONER
Subj: Re: Updates to the Experience System!
>We’ll discuss how to properly resolve the situation, but we aren’t going to penalize players for our error. The contest won’t be re-run for this period, and we’ll make sure that the experience multiplier reflects the state of the contest as it should have been. The average of the top 39 is higher than the average of the top 39 in the last contest, so I have no doubt that the new Lumnis amount will be higher this contest period than it was in the previous one.
Just chop this weeks table at 39 (or more if anyone beats the 39th), compare that average with the top 39 from the first contest and use the difference to set the award for next time. That should be a very robust estimate.
Player logs would allow for a pretty good idea of who the missing 11 are, but it probably couldn’t be a definitive one and if it can’t be a definitive one, the estimate will be less robust than using the top 39 difference. It might be worth attempting to repair the table for reasons of streaks, but not for Lumnis award estimating.
Date: 03/12/2017 08:22 AM CDT
From: RATHBONER
Subj: Re: Updates to the Experience System!
Couple more points.
If you haven’t retrospectively removed them automatically I’ve got a character with maybe as much as 10k bug points accumulated before the fix that has yet to complete the contest, and others coming into the table over the next few days may well be the same.
I did wonder if starting a second Lumnis while the eyes were still on me (whether by taking more than a week, or by using schedule) would break the contest in some way. This was the week I’d normally have used schedule but I decided to leave it for a week longer rather than risk losing out on seeing how close I got to the bottom of the table (not very, even though I think its the most I’ve ever got under old Lumnis rules).
Date: 03/12/2017 08:28 AM CDT
From: CANDIDE
Subj: Re: Updates to the Experience System!
Galenblackbard got tossed out of the top 50 but I do not remember having and long term experience.
GBB
Date: 03/12/2017 10:09 AM CDT
From: DRUMPEL
Subj: Re: Updates to the Experience System!
I had offline experience turned off on my wizard I used to participate in the contest and he did not have any long-term exp saved up. In fact, he hadn’t even received a long-term experience boost since he only hunted a handful of creatures and was never granted one until the past week. I never made use of it since I was trying to see what he can do for the contest.
I don’t remember his exact exp gained, but it was just shy of 19.5k (something like 19,457).
Shame a bug slipped through to muck it up on some characters. Good that you caught it.
I suppose we see what comes from all of this.
-Drumpel
Date: 03/12/2017 01:59 PM CDT
From: MAYLAN
Subj: Re: Updates to the Experience System!
The not-so-good: I’m disappointed that some folks who tried really hard to make it on the board had to get booted from the results. Is there any way to unofficially add them to the display board, even just their names?
The good: I absolutely love the increased cooperation this time around. It sounds like even with the hiccups, we had a better result because of it. A huge thank you to everyone who donated money, organized the pool, and put in their best effort for the contest. You all rock.
I was able to place so highly due to the kindness of a buddy who lent me some logic enhancives. Next time around I suggest we figure out some way to share or loan out logic enhancives in addition to raising the cash prizes.
I’m still a fan of this change to lumnis, and I’d like to thank the GMs for working to resolve the bugs so quickly.
~Land Pirate Maylan~
Date: 03/12/2017 02:02 PM CDT
From: GOAT
Subj: Re: Updates to the Experience System!
> Just chop this weeks table at 39 (or more if anyone beats the 39th), compare that average with the top 39 from the first contest and use the difference to set the award for next time. That should be a very robust estimate.
TO elaborate:
total exp pool for this contest = sum(top 39 this time) + [(sum top 39 this time)/(sum of top 39 last time) * (sum of last 11 last time)] new gift amount = (total exp pool for this contest) / 50
So the last 11 is filled by taking the last 11 from last time and multiplying by the ratio between this run and last run, for the data we know are correct. I think the difference between my proposal and RATHBONER’s is that I advocate normalizing via multiplication and I think he was suggesting an addition (because of the word “difference” rather than “ratio.”)
And of course, if more people fill in spots in the top 39, the cutoff could be lower. E.g. if 4 more people beat the current top 50, split the above formula into top 43 and last 7.
Date: 03/12/2017 02:04 PM CDT
From: GOAT
Subj: Re: Updates to the Experience System!
> E.g. if 4 more people beat the current top 50, split the above formula into top 43 and last 7. Sorry, that should be “if 4 more people beat the current top 39”
Date: 03/12/2017 02:33 PM CDT
From: GS4-FINROS
Subj: Re: Updates to the Experience System!
>And those contestants who had their offline experience flag OFF were still subject to this bug? Or was that also defective?
If you weren’t gaining offline experience during the contest period, nothing was wrong.
>It might be worth attempting to repair the table for reasons of streaks, but not for Lumnis award estimating.
Yes, regardless of how we handle the final contest amount, if your experience total was such that you think you should have maintained a streak, send me a message with your character name and your personally logged experience total, and I can manually intervene to restore the streak at the next contest period if it seems warranted. Make sure that you weren’t earning offline experience in that time; it’s rare that somebody was and would legitimately end up in the top 50.
>If you haven’t retrospectively removed them automatically I’ve got a character with maybe as much as 10k bug points accumulated before the fix that has yet to complete the contest, and others coming into the table over the next few days may well be the same.
Yes, I’m aware. I’ll need to manually prune the table again, I’m sure. Fortunately we now have additional logging so that I can find anybody else that gets forced off the table incorrectly.
>Galenblackbard got tossed out of the top 50 but I do not remember having and long term experience.
The character “Galenblackbard” wasn’t on the top 50 list at the time I did my pruning. It may have been that the system automatically pushed you off the end when a character with a higher experience total arrived.
>I had offline experience turned off on my wizard I used to participate in the contest and he did not have any long-term exp saved up. In fact, he hadn’t even received a long-term experience boost since he only hunted a handful of creatures and was never granted one until the past week.
Long-term experience is different from offline experience and did not have any negative effect. As mentioned above, if you want to maintain your streak and it looks like your experience number should have had you on the table as it finally ends up, send me a note and I can manually intervene.
>I’m disappointed that some folks who tried really hard to make it on the board had to get booted from the results. Is there any way to unofficially add them to the display board, even just their names?
Unfortunately, as stated, that data was lost. It will not be in the future because I added additional logging, but I don’t know who was on the list at various times, unfortunately.
> Just FWI – I had my pocket wizard do herbs and gems for entire lumnis. He leveled during the process totaling over 39k exp while never leaving a table except to turn in and get bounties. Never logged out…just turned in and absorbed. Not sure what happened but would love to know what of that 39k exp counted towards the contest. At the end of lumnis no message appeared stating my contest status.
The contest period starts at the same time as Lumnis but the end isn’t synchronized. For the overwhelming majority of people out there, the contest period (six hours of experience-gaining pulses) will end before the point-based Lumnis period does.
Date: 03/12/2017 03:28 PM CDT
From: GOAT
Subj: Re: Updates to the Experience System!
> Unfortunately, as stated, that data was lost. It will not be in the future because I added additional logging, but I don’t know who was on the list at various times, unfortunately.
I might be able to help with that. I had been pasting the leaderboard into a Google Sheet periodically to check out our progress. I kept pasting leaderboards over top of each other, but each time, I made note of the time I did the pasting and the new mean/max/min. I was able to Ctrl-Z as far back as late Thursday night before the undo buffer ran dry. Here are a few leaderboards from Thursday until I stopped tracking (when Unit showed up atop the leaderboard and things were clearly in a bad state).
Please note that while I am not ultra-confident that I got the times lined up correctly with the leaderboards, I am very confident that these were, in fact, legit leaderboards.
Sorry for the spam – one more thought – I have a ton more leaderboards in my logs, as I’m sure many others do. I may not be able to nail down exact times for them, but I’m sure I (or someone else) could come up with more names that were later pushed off the list, if it helps.
Date: 03/12/2017 04:28 PM CDT
From: MAYLAN
Subj: Re: Updates to the Experience System!
>I might be able to help with that. I had been pasting the leaderboard into a Google Sheet periodically to check out our progress. I kept pasting leaderboards over top of each other, but each time, I made note of the time I did the pasting and the new mean/max/min.
You’re really just awesome. Do you know how awesome you are?
~Land Pirate Maylan~
Date: 03/12/2017 04:44 PM CDT
From: INIQUITY
Subj: Re: Updates to the Experience System!
>lumnis contest current
| Rank | Name | Exp | Streak || Rank | Name | Exp | Streak |
